Shark configuration questions

Steve Grimes

Shark configuration questions
Hello, Z/os 1.4, DB2 7.1 here!

I just found out that, to take advantage of special "year-end" pricing --
we're going to order a new Shark by the end of the week! (About 3Tb.)

I'm not working with the team that's doing this directly, however their
manager just walked in my office and asked "What's this I hear about you
wanting some 3390 mod 9's?" Followed shortly by, "What size mod-9's? They
could be x or y or z gig each."

I've gone over a few of the notes from the archive. The biggest case for
mod-9's seemed to be from the point of getting all you can from a fully
loaded shark. Our's won't be (I don't think). We have only 392 logical
volumes (UCB's?) defined in our current, 6-rank set-up. (Some 3380's, some
3390's.)

In the new FICON attached set-up, we're apparantly intending to duplicate
the existing 6-rank set-up, but need to decide what to do with the other 12
or so ranks.

I originally wanted the mod-9's because we're not using SMS for DB2 storage
groups, and it's becoming a pain to manage extents across volumes on my
large multi-partition tables. I'm now being offered an SMS "bone" which I
think I'll take! But I'm also not wanting to miss opportunities here. I'm
told that when we install the shark, the ranks will be configured, and will
be difficult (but perhaps not impossible) to change later.

Here are some concerns (I've heard) about setting up some "mod-9" space:

1) More sizes of DASD makes it harder to manage. Right now we have two
(3380's & 3390-3's) and we'd like to get back to 1.
2) More parallel access path (PAV?) conflict potential for a single large
UCB. Right now we don't have IOSQ's, and we don't want to start seeing
them.
3) FUDSI
4) SMS, if/when we start using it, will simplify our allocation problems.
(I mentioned the DB2 situation above. The non-DB2 stuff requires
hard-coded vol-ser's on ever non-temp allocation.) This will relieve the
pressure for more space per logical volume.

Thanks in advance for any advice. (I just wish I understood more about
what UCB's, PAV's etc are. Right now I'm in the middle of a DB2 subsystem
rebuild and don't have time to do good homework.)

Stg

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Philip Sevetson

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Steve Grimes)
I Am Not A Systems Programmer

But, using Mod-9s means you can deploy a smaller number of devices (fewer
hardware entries in various tables, VTOCs, other resources which grow or
increase depending on the number of devices) and safely allocate larger
extents (fewer cycles wasted on extent processing). Using Mod-27s aka
Super-9s improves this again by a factor of three.

And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture for,
anyway?

--Phil Sevetson
Database Administration
Wakefern Food Corporation CISD
mailto:[login to unmask email]






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Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List <[login to unmask email]>
12/27/2004 04:50 PM
Please respond to DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG


To: [login to unmask email]
cc:
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


Hello, Z/os 1.4, DB2 7.1 here!

I just found out that, to take advantage of special "year-end" pricing --
we're going to order a new Shark by the end of the week! (About 3Tb.)

I'm not working with the team that's doing this directly, however their
manager just walked in my office and asked "What's this I hear about you
wanting some 3390 mod 9's?" Followed shortly by, "What size mod-9's? They
could be x or y or z gig each."

I've gone over a few of the notes from the archive. The biggest case for
mod-9's seemed to be from the point of getting all you can from a fully
loaded shark. Our's won't be (I don't think). We have only 392 logical
volumes (UCB's?) defined in our current, 6-rank set-up. (Some 3380's,
some
3390's.)

In the new FICON attached set-up, we're apparantly intending to duplicate
the existing 6-rank set-up, but need to decide what to do with the other
12
or so ranks.

I originally wanted the mod-9's because we're not using SMS for DB2
storage
groups, and it's becoming a pain to manage extents across volumes on my
large multi-partition tables. I'm now being offered an SMS "bone" which
I
think I'll take! But I'm also not wanting to miss opportunities here. I'm
told that when we install the shark, the ranks will be configured, and
will
be difficult (but perhaps not impossible) to change later.

Here are some concerns (I've heard) about setting up some "mod-9" space:

1) More sizes of DASD makes it harder to manage. Right now we have two
(3380's & 3390-3's) and we'd like to get back to 1.
2) More parallel access path (PAV?) conflict potential for a single large
UCB. Right now we don't have IOSQ's, and we don't want to start seeing
them.
3) FUDSI
4) SMS, if/when we start using it, will simplify our allocation problems.
(I mentioned the DB2 situation above. The non-DB2 stuff requires
hard-coded vol-ser's on ever non-temp allocation.) This will relieve the
pressure for more space per logical volume.

Thanks in advance for any advice. (I just wish I understood more about
what UCB's, PAV's etc are. Right now I'm in the middle of a DB2 subsystem
rebuild and don't have time to do good homework.)

Stg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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John McKown

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Philip Sevetson)
How big is your DASD configuration? There is a limit on the number of
addresses that can be generated on a single system. IIRC, it is 4096. A
large DASD farm can eat these addresses up very quickly. In the past,
the large DASD sizes were considered bad because (1) there could only be
1 I/O outstanding at a time; (2) they were more difficult to recover at
D.R. However, with DFSMS, WLM and Dynamic PAV, you can generate a
smaller number of I/O addresses for the same amount of DASD terabytes.
Dynamic PAV allows WLM to determine, on the fly, how many alias
addresses to assign to a physical DASD. This relieves the IOS queueing
on that DASD. And because it is dynamic, you can make due with fewer I/O
addresses to the same number of terabytes.

Also, not so much for DB2, but for other access methods, a larger DASD
usually mean more efficient space utilization. That is, a large DASD is
more likely to have space available for secondary extents than a smaller
DASD. Again, with DB2, this is not likely as much of a problem since a
DB2 database can be composed of multiple VSAM LDS datasets.

Just some thoughts.


--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
UICI Insurance Center
Information Technology

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List
> [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf Of
> [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 3:51 PM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
>
> Hello, Z/os 1.4, DB2 7.1 here!
>
> I just found out that, to take advantage of special
> "year-end" pricing --
> we're going to order a new Shark by the end of the week! (About 3Tb.)
>
> I'm not working with the team that's doing this directly,
> however their
> manager just walked in my office and asked "What's this I
> hear about you
> wanting some 3390 mod 9's?" Followed shortly by, "What size
> mod-9's? They
> could be x or y or z gig each."
>
> I've gone over a few of the notes from the archive. The
> biggest case for
> mod-9's seemed to be from the point of getting all you can
> from a fully
> loaded shark. Our's won't be (I don't think). We have only
> 392 logical
> volumes (UCB's?) defined in our current, 6-rank set-up.
> (Some 3380's, some
> 3390's.)
>
> In the new FICON attached set-up, we're apparantly intending
> to duplicate
> the existing 6-rank set-up, but need to decide what to do
> with the other 12
> or so ranks.
>
> I originally wanted the mod-9's because we're not using SMS
> for DB2 storage
> groups, and it's becoming a pain to manage extents across
> volumes on my
> large multi-partition tables. I'm now being offered an SMS
> "bone" which I
> think I'll take! But I'm also not wanting to miss
> opportunities here. I'm
> told that when we install the shark, the ranks will be
> configured, and will
> be difficult (but perhaps not impossible) to change later.
>
> Here are some concerns (I've heard) about setting up some
> "mod-9" space:
>
> 1) More sizes of DASD makes it harder to manage. Right now
> we have two
> (3380's & 3390-3's) and we'd like to get back to 1.
> 2) More parallel access path (PAV?) conflict potential for a
> single large
> UCB. Right now we don't have IOSQ's, and we don't want to
> start seeing
> them.
> 3) FUDSI
> 4) SMS, if/when we start using it, will simplify our
> allocation problems.
> (I mentioned the DB2 situation above. The non-DB2 stuff requires
> hard-coded vol-ser's on ever non-temp allocation.) This will
> relieve the
> pressure for more space per logical volume.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice. (I just wish I understood
> more about
> what UCB's, PAV's etc are. Right now I'm in the middle of a
> DB2 subsystem
> rebuild and don't have time to do good homework.)
>
> Stg
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the
> archives and home page at
> http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page
> select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
> http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached
> at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on
> IDUG conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm

Steve Grimes

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to John McKown)
Hello,

Regarding:

>> How big is your DASD configuration?

Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a
problem for us.

>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted
>>things one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that
>>ancient architecture for, anyway?

Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's
are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.

Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into a
note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.

Stg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm

Isaac Yassin

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Steve Grimes)
Hi,
ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner (use dynamic PAV).

Isaac Yassin
DBMS & IT Consulting
IBM Certified Solution Expert
DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
IBM Certified Database Administrator
DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS



-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hello,

Regarding:

>> How big is your DASD configuration?

Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a problem for us.

>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>for, anyway?

Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.

Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into a note to the group managing the acquisition and
configuration.

Stg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be
reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Tom Moulder

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Isaac Yassin)
There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference that
TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".

How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold
software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)

That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those on the
list that were still in grade school.

Tom Moulder
TREX Associates, Inc.
9728 Delmonico
Keller, TX. 76248-9559
+1 817-741-5549 Office
+1 817-741-5548 Fax
+1 832-858-4279 Mobile
www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
Of Isaac Yassin
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hi,
ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner
(use dynamic PAV).

Isaac Yassin
DBMS & IT Consulting
IBM Certified Solution Expert
DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
IBM Certified Database Administrator
DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS



-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
Of [login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hello,

Regarding:

>> How big is your DASD configuration?

Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a
problem for us.

>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>for, anyway?

Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's are
tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.

Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into a
note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.

Stg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
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[login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at
http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm

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Linda Billings

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Tom Moulder)
Sorry, Tom, can't say that I ever heard of TOTAL. But I graduated from
college in '84 and was still wet behind the ears then.

Linda Billings
Database Administrator
State of Wisconsin
Department of Administration
Division of Enterprise Technology
Bureau of Development and Operations
[login to unmask email]


Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." - Oscar
Wilde


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Moulder [mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:58 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference that
TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".

How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold
software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)

That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those on the
list that were still in grade school.

Tom Moulder
TREX Associates, Inc.
9728 Delmonico
Keller, TX. 76248-9559
+1 817-741-5549 Office
+1 817-741-5548 Fax
+1 832-858-4279 Mobile
www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
Of Isaac Yassin
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hi,
ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner
(use dynamic PAV).

Isaac Yassin
DBMS & IT Consulting
IBM Certified Solution Expert
DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
IBM Certified Database Administrator
DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS



-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
Of [login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hello,

Regarding:

>> How big is your DASD configuration?

Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a
problem for us.

>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>for, anyway?

Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's are
tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.

Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into a
note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.

Stg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and home
page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at
[login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at
http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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The IDUG List Admins can be reached at [login to unmask email] Find
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm

Michael McCawley

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Isaac Yassin)
Tom -

Did you work for Cincom?

We are all getting too old.

Happy New Year,
Mike McCawley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Moulder" <[login to unmask email]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
To: <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


> There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference
that
> TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
>
> How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
> Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold
> software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
>
> That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those on
the
> list that were still in grade school.
>
> Tom Moulder
> TREX Associates, Inc.
> 9728 Delmonico
> Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> +1 817-741-5549 Office
> +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of Isaac Yassin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hi,
> ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
> Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
> You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner
> (use dynamic PAV).
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hello,
>
> Regarding:
>
> >> How big is your DASD configuration?
>
> Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a
> problem for us.
>
> >>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
> >>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
> >>for, anyway?
>
> Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's
are
> tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
>
> Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into
a
> note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.
>
> Stg
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -----
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Isaac Yassin

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Linda Billings)
Hi Tom,

I worked with TOTAL, SUPRA, DL1 (before IMS existed ...) etc. I coded in ISAM as well ... (on 360 machine) ...
It's certainly my opinion about DBMS :-)


Isaac Yassin
DBMS & IT Consulting
IBM Certified Solution Expert
DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
IBM Certified Database Administrator
DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS



-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf Of Tom Moulder
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:58 PM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".

How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they
only sold software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)

That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those on the list that were still in grade school.

Tom Moulder
TREX Associates, Inc.
9728 Delmonico
Keller, TX. 76248-9559
+1 817-741-5549 Office
+1 817-741-5548 Fax
+1 832-858-4279 Mobile
www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf Of Isaac Yassin
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hi,
ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner (use dynamic PAV).

Isaac Yassin
DBMS & IT Consulting
IBM Certified Solution Expert
DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
IBM Certified Database Administrator
DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS



-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hello,

Regarding:

>> How big is your DASD configuration?

Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a problem for us.

>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>for, anyway?

Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.

Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into a note to the group managing the acquisition and
configuration.

Stg

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Joel Goldstein

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Michael McCawley)
Hi Yassin,
One of your dinosaurs checking in here....
Maybe I'm having a random expulsion of cerebral gas, but I used IMS in
1970(?), and DL/1 was part of IMS as I remember it.....???
Regards,
Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Yassin" <[login to unmask email]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
To: <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


> Hi Tom,
>
> I worked with TOTAL, SUPRA, DL1 (before IMS existed ...) etc. I coded in
> ISAM as well ... (on 360 machine) ...
> It's certainly my opinion about DBMS :-)
>
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of Tom Moulder
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:58 PM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference
> that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
>
> How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
> Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they
> only sold software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
>
> That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those on
> the list that were still in grade school.
>
> Tom Moulder
> TREX Associates, Inc.
> 9728 Delmonico
> Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> +1 817-741-5549 Office
> +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of Isaac Yassin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hi,
> ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
> Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
> You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner
> (use dynamic PAV).
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hello,
>
> Regarding:
>
>>> How big is your DASD configuration?
>
> Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a
> problem for us.
>
>>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>>for, anyway?
>
> Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's
> are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
>
> Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into
> a note to the group managing the acquisition and
> configuration.
>
> Stg
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
> http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be
> reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
> conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
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> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
> http://www.idugdb2-l.org.
> The IDUG List Admins can be reached at [login to unmask email]
> Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at
> http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
> http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be
> reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
> conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page
> select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
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Lynne Flatley

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Joel Goldstein)
Cullinane/Cullinet? I worked there in the early 80's. I was going to
say something about their dbms but I didn't want to start another flame
war <g>...

Lynne Flatley
Liberty Mutual Insurance Co.
Personal Market Systems - DBA
Portsmouth, NH 03802-7201
( 603-245-9334

"You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help
the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot help the poor
by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for
them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Tom Moulder
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:58 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference
that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".

How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold
software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)

That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those on
the list that were still in grade school.

Tom Moulder
TREX Associates, Inc.
9728 Delmonico
Keller, TX. 76248-9559
+1 817-741-5549 Office
+1 817-741-5548 Fax
+1 832-858-4279 Mobile
www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Isaac Yassin
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hi,
ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ). Anyway this
should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 . You can use the regular
mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner (use dynamic PAV).

Isaac Yassin
DBMS & IT Consulting
IBM Certified Solution Expert
DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
IBM Certified Database Administrator
DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS



-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Hello,

Regarding:

>> How big is your DASD configuration?

Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a
problem for us.

>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>for, anyway?

Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's
are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.

Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them
into a note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.

Stg

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-----
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at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm

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--
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Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004


--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004

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---------
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home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that
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Tom Moulder

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Lynne Flatley)
I have never worked for Cincom, I have never chosen to use TOTAL as a DBMS.
However, considering the votes that were cast with dollars, there was a time
when TOTAL was certainly chosen by a large number of corporations. I never
understood it, but I did realize what was going on.

As many people know, I would not choose Microsft. However, there are times
today when one has little choices if you want to integrate with a large
number of users over a network. Perhaps there will be a day in the future
(say 19 years hence) that a list will have s discussion about Microsoft and
Windows and the discussion will be similar --

"You need a "real-Operating-System", not Windows."

But I'm off on a tangent.

Tom Moulder
TREX Associates, Inc.
9728 Delmonico
Keller, TX. 76248-9559
+1 817-741-5549 Office
+1 817-741-5548 Fax
+1 832-858-4279 Mobile
www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
Of Michael L. McCawley
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:55 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

Tom -

Did you work for Cincom?

We are all getting too old.

Happy New Year,
Mike McCawley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Moulder" <[login to unmask email]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
To: <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


> There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference
that
> TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
>
> How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
> Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold
> software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
>
> That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those
> on
the
> list that were still in grade school.
>
> Tom Moulder
> TREX Associates, Inc.
> 9728 Delmonico
> Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> +1 817-741-5549 Office
> +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Isaac Yassin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hi,
> ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
> Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
> You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a
> winner (use dynamic PAV).
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hello,
>
> Regarding:
>
> >> How big is your DASD configuration?
>
> Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is
> a problem for us.
>
> >>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
> >>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient
> >>architecture for, anyway?
>
> Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the
> 3380's
are
> tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
>
> Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them
> into
a
> note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.
>
> Stg
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
--
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
home
> page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is
> at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at
> [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
> conferences
at
> http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
--
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
home
> page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page
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> "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at
http://www.idugdb2-l.org.
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Find
> out the latest on IDUG conferences at
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>
>
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Linda Billings

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Tom Moulder)
I thought that I had heard that DL/1 was a precursor to IMS. I actually had
a class in DL/1 in college. Don't remember much though. The class was at 8
AM....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Linda Billings
Database Administrator
State of Wisconsin
Department of Administration
Division of Enterprise Technology
Bureau of Development and Operations
[login to unmask email]


Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." - Oscar
Wilde



-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Goldstein - Responsive Systems
[mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:05 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


Hi Yassin,
One of your dinosaurs checking in here....
Maybe I'm having a random expulsion of cerebral gas, but I used IMS in
1970(?), and DL/1 was part of IMS as I remember it.....???
Regards,
Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Yassin" <[login to unmask email]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
To: <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


> Hi Tom,
>
> I worked with TOTAL, SUPRA, DL1 (before IMS existed ...) etc. I coded in
> ISAM as well ... (on 360 machine) ...
> It's certainly my opinion about DBMS :-)
>
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of Tom Moulder
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:58 PM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference
> that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
>
> How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
> Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they
> only sold software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
>
> That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those on
> the list that were still in grade school.
>
> Tom Moulder
> TREX Associates, Inc.
> 9728 Delmonico
> Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> +1 817-741-5549 Office
> +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of Isaac Yassin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hi,
> ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
> Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
> You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner
> (use dynamic PAV).
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
> Of [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hello,
>
> Regarding:
>
>>> How big is your DASD configuration?
>
> Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is a
> problem for us.
>
>>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>>for, anyway?
>
> Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the 3380's
> are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
>
> Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them into
> a note to the group managing the acquisition and
> configuration.
>
> Stg
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
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> http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be
> reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
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>
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David Seibert

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Linda Billings)
DL/I was and is the programming language for IMS.

I believe there was a DL/I for VSE which was the database and the language.

That's testing some old, unused synapses and I'm too lazy or impatient to
look it up.

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
Of Billings, Linda
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:13 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


I thought that I had heard that DL/1 was a precursor to IMS. I actually had
a class in DL/1 in college. Don't remember much though. The class was at 8
AM....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Linda Billings
Database Administrator
State of Wisconsin
Department of Administration
Division of Enterprise Technology
Bureau of Development and Operations [login to unmask email]


Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." - Oscar
Wilde



-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Goldstein - Responsive Systems
[mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:05 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


Hi Yassin,
One of your dinosaurs checking in here....
Maybe I'm having a random expulsion of cerebral gas, but I used IMS in
1970(?), and DL/1 was part of IMS as I remember it.....??? Regards, Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Yassin" <[login to unmask email]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
To: <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


> Hi Tom,
>
> I worked with TOTAL, SUPRA, DL1 (before IMS existed ...) etc. I coded
> in ISAM as well ... (on 360 machine) ... It's certainly my opinion
> about DBMS :-)
>
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Tom Moulder
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:58 PM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference
> that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
>
> How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
> Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold
> software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
>
> That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those
> on the list that were still in grade school.
>
> Tom Moulder
> TREX Associates, Inc.
> 9728 Delmonico
> Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> +1 817-741-5549 Office
> +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Isaac Yassin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hi,
> ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ). Anyway this
> should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 . You can use the regular
> mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner (use dynamic PAV).
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hello,
>
> Regarding:
>
>>> How big is your DASD configuration?
>
> Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is
> a problem for us.
>
>>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>>>for, anyway?
>
> Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the
> 3380's are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
>
> Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them
> into a note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.
>
> Stg
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is
> at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at
> [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
> conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is
> at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at
> [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
> conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is
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> [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
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>
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> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that
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> [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
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Avram Friedman

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to David Seibert)
IMS DC was started as a joint project between IBM and Rockwell in 1966
and became an active viable product 2 years later.
The 'data base portion of IMS was developed in the 61-62 time frame at
the University in Toronto Ca and was known as
VANDL VANCOUVER Data Language. IMS DC was marketed and pushed for the
big heavy metal a 360 / 30 or bigger running one of the OS operating
systems (MFT). DLI was the name that was used for the after the fact
port to OS DOS machines.

Worked on my first IMS system at the state of Wisconsin Department of
Health and Social Services in 1973. Prior to IMS there main data base
was home grown and called PINS Program INformation System actually the
the original name was "PIS" but it was the subject of a lot of naughty
jokes. The person who did the first IMS install at the state of
wisconsin was Fred Weget of the Department of Administration. A few
years ago (5) I know he was was working at IBM still doing IMS level 2 /
3 work.


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Billings, Linda
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:13 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

I thought that I had heard that DL/1 was a precursor to IMS. I actually
had a class in DL/1 in college. Don't remember much though. The class
was at 8 AM....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Linda Billings
Database Administrator
State of Wisconsin
Department of Administration
Division of Enterprise Technology
Bureau of Development and Operations
[login to unmask email]


Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." -
Oscar Wilde



-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Goldstein - Responsive Systems
[mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:05 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


Hi Yassin,
One of your dinosaurs checking in here....
Maybe I'm having a random expulsion of cerebral gas, but I used IMS in
1970(?), and DL/1 was part of IMS as I remember it.....???
Regards,
Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Yassin" <[login to unmask email]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
To: <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


> Hi Tom,
>
> I worked with TOTAL, SUPRA, DL1 (before IMS existed ...) etc. I coded
> in ISAM as well ... (on 360 machine) ...
> It's certainly my opinion about DBMS :-)
>
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Tom Moulder
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:58 PM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference

> that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
>
> How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software

> Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold

> software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
>
> That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those
> on the list that were still in grade school.
>
> Tom Moulder
> TREX Associates, Inc.
> 9728 Delmonico
> Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> +1 817-741-5549 Office
> +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Isaac Yassin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hi,
> ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ).
> Anyway this should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 .
> You can use the regular mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a
> winner (use dynamic PAV).
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hello,
>
> Regarding:
>
>>> How big is your DASD configuration?
>
> Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is
> a problem for us.
>
>>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture

>>>for, anyway?
>
> Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the
> 3380's are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
>
> Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them
> into a note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.
>
> Stg
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and

> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is
> at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at
> [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
> conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> -----
> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and

> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is
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> The IDUG List Admins can be reached at
[login to unmask email]
> Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at
> http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004
>
>
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> Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and

> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
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> home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that
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Avram Friedman

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Avram Friedman)
Internet references to clearly resolve this issue of what came first IMS
DL/1 or VANDL are hard to find, after all we are talking about an
on-line era that predated any thing like the internet as we know it
today ... I was a user of the WELL in the early 70's. I am fairly sure
from my own recolections that VANDL was the grand daddie hieraractal
system from which both DL/1 and IMS grew but the histories I managed to
find suggest other wise.

Maybe is Lyon Lockwood is following this thread he could comment on it
... Lyon wrote the first non IBM published IMS book I ever read (Not
counting AMDAHL Tech Topics)

At any rate here is an interesting short history from the CICS / DOS
perspective

http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197003.htm

Also from the same web site is a 1968 anounement of both IMS and CICS
... You will note that IMS beat CICS to the market by about 6 months.
You may have to click the option that says CICS Reference and Trivia,
then Announements 1968 to present, then 1968 announcements

http://www.yelavich.com



-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Seibert, Dave
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:17 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions

DL/I was and is the programming language for IMS.

I believe there was a DL/I for VSE which was the database and the
language.

That's testing some old, unused synapses and I'm too lazy or impatient
to look it up.

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Billings, Linda
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:13 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


I thought that I had heard that DL/1 was a precursor to IMS. I actually
had a class in DL/1 in college. Don't remember much though. The class
was at 8 AM....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Linda Billings
Database Administrator
State of Wisconsin
Department of Administration
Division of Enterprise Technology
Bureau of Development and Operations [login to unmask email]


Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." -
Oscar Wilde



-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Goldstein - Responsive Systems
[mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:05 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


Hi Yassin,
One of your dinosaurs checking in here....
Maybe I'm having a random expulsion of cerebral gas, but I used IMS in
1970(?), and DL/1 was part of IMS as I remember it.....??? Regards, Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Isaac Yassin" <[login to unmask email]>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
To: <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions


> Hi Tom,
>
> I worked with TOTAL, SUPRA, DL1 (before IMS existed ...) etc. I coded
> in ISAM as well ... (on 360 machine) ... It's certainly my opinion
> about DBMS :-)
>
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Tom Moulder
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:58 PM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference

> that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
>
> How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software

> Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold

> software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
>
> That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those
> on the list that were still in grade school.
>
> Tom Moulder
> TREX Associates, Inc.
> 9728 Delmonico
> Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> +1 817-741-5549 Office
> +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Isaac Yassin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hi,
> ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ). Anyway this
> should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 . You can use the regular
> mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner (use dynamic PAV).
>
> Isaac Yassin
> DBMS & IT Consulting
> IBM Certified Solution Expert
> DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> IBM Certified Database Administrator
> DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> Hello,
>
> Regarding:
>
>>> How big is your DASD configuration?
>
> Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is
> a problem for us.
>
>>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
>>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture

>>>for, anyway?
>
> Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the
> 3380's are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
>
> Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them
> into a note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.
>
> Stg
>
>
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Myron Miller

Re: Shark configuration questions
(in response to Avram Friedman)
From my own personal knowledge, IMS DL/I came first (about 64 or 65 if I
remember correctly). It was an outgrowth of a system from North American
Rockwell that they developed. I actually have (had) some of the original
manuals for the Rockwell/IBM prototype and in the manuals they state that
certain features of the OS/360 operating system were not yet finalized but they
expected them to work in certain ways.

VANDL was a DOS version of DL/I that was developed later to allow people on DOS
to have a database management system as well. And I don't think VANDL came
until the late sixties, but I could be wrong here. I used it in the very early
70's.


Myron
--- "Friedman, Avram (IT)" <[login to unmask email]> wrote:

> Internet references to clearly resolve this issue of what came first IMS
> DL/1 or VANDL are hard to find, after all we are talking about an
> on-line era that predated any thing like the internet as we know it
> today ... I was a user of the WELL in the early 70's. I am fairly sure
> from my own recolections that VANDL was the grand daddie hieraractal
> system from which both DL/1 and IMS grew but the histories I managed to
> find suggest other wise.
>
> Maybe is Lyon Lockwood is following this thread he could comment on it
> ... Lyon wrote the first non IBM published IMS book I ever read (Not
> counting AMDAHL Tech Topics)
>
> At any rate here is an interesting short history from the CICS / DOS
> perspective
>
> http://www.yelavich.com/history/ev197003.htm
>
> Also from the same web site is a 1968 anounement of both IMS and CICS
> ... You will note that IMS beat CICS to the market by about 6 months.
> You may have to click the option that says CICS Reference and Trivia,
> then Announements 1968 to present, then 1968 announcements
>
> http://www.yelavich.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Seibert, Dave
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:17 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
> DL/I was and is the programming language for IMS.
>
> I believe there was a DL/I for VSE which was the database and the
> language.
>
> That's testing some old, unused synapses and I'm too lazy or impatient
> to look it up.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> Behalf Of Billings, Linda
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:13 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
>
> I thought that I had heard that DL/1 was a precursor to IMS. I actually
> had a class in DL/1 in college. Don't remember much though. The class
> was at 8 AM....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
>
> Linda Billings
> Database Administrator
> State of Wisconsin
> Department of Administration
> Division of Enterprise Technology
> Bureau of Development and Operations [login to unmask email]
>
>
> Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." -
> Oscar Wilde
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Goldstein - Responsive Systems
> [mailto:[login to unmask email]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:05 AM
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
>
> Hi Yassin,
> One of your dinosaurs checking in here....
> Maybe I'm having a random expulsion of cerebral gas, but I used IMS in
> 1970(?), and DL/1 was part of IMS as I remember it.....??? Regards, Joel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Isaac Yassin" <[login to unmask email]>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.db2-l
> To: <[login to unmask email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
>
>
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > I worked with TOTAL, SUPRA, DL1 (before IMS existed ...) etc. I coded
> > in ISAM as well ... (on 360 machine) ... It's certainly my opinion
> > about DBMS :-)
> >
> >
> > Isaac Yassin
> > DBMS & IT Consulting
> > IBM Certified Solution Expert
> > DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> > IBM Certified Database Administrator
> > DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> > Behalf Of Tom Moulder
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:58 PM
> > To: [login to unmask email]
> > Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
> >
> > There are probably those that would argue with you about the inference
>
> > that TOTAL was not a "real-dbms".
> >
> > How many on the list know the name of the largest Independent Software
>
> > Vendor in the world as of 1985? Independent means that they only sold
>
> > software (so leave out IBM, DEC etc.)
> >
> > That was just 19 years ago ... Well, it may be a real test for those
> > on the list that were still in grade school.
> >
> > Tom Moulder
> > TREX Associates, Inc.
> > 9728 Delmonico
> > Keller, TX. 76248-9559
> > +1 817-741-5549 Office
> > +1 817-741-5548 Fax
> > +1 832-858-4279 Mobile
> > www.t-rex-associates.com Web Site
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> > Behalf Of Isaac Yassin
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:49 AM
> > To: [login to unmask email]
> > Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
> >
> > Hi,
> > ISAM is being phased out by IBM. You'll need to move/migrate those
> > applications to a "real DBMS " ( may I suggest DB2 :-) ). Anyway this
> > should not be a hindrance to dump the 3380 . You can use the regular
> > mod-9 (3x3390) and together with PAV it's a winner (use dynamic PAV).
> >
> > Isaac Yassin
> > DBMS & IT Consulting
> > IBM Certified Solution Expert
> > DB2 V7 for OS/390 & z/OS
> > IBM Certified Database Administrator
> > DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
> > Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:56 AM
> > To: [login to unmask email]
> > Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Shark configuration questions
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Regarding:
> >
> >>> How big is your DASD configuration?
> >
> > Only about 400 volumes at present, so I don't think the 4096 limit is
> > a problem for us.
> >
> >>>And get OUT of those 3380s if you have to swap the blasted things
> >>>one-for-one with 3390s. What are you using that ancient architecture
>
> >>>for, anyway?
> >
> > Noted. But, um, we still have folks here using ISAM! Mostly the
> > 3380's are tried to our Cincom TOTAL (pre-SUPRA) files.
> >
> > Thank you for the responses. I'm collecting them so I can wrap them
> > into a note to the group managing the acquisition and configuration.
> >
> > Stg
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > -----
> > Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and
>
> > home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html.
> > From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is
> > at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at
> > [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG
> > conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=== message truncated ===

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Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm