OT: [DB2-L] Globalisation -- (DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE)

Kirk Hampton

OT: [DB2-L] Globalisation -- (DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE)
I have just one more question with regards to this topic:

In the Internet Age, what type of job cannot be offshored ?

I have a child in high school that I would like to direct

toward such a career, if one does exist.



Thanks, and sorry for the waste of bandwidth

Kirk Hampton

DB2 z/OS Sysprog (just a matter of time before my job goes to Bangalore)



IBM Certified Database Administrator - DB2 UDB V8.1 for z/OS

Capgemini Energy

Dallas, Texas





-----Original Message-----

From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On

Behalf Of Paul Fegan

Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 4:29 PM

To: [login to unmask email]

Subject: [DB2-L] Globalisation -- (DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE)



Hi All,



I think you are all missing the point. You appear to be blaming the

bullet for being a bullet. Wouldn't it be more productive to get angry

at the person behind the gun. Globalization has been around for a long

time and it's just IT's turn to get shafted by the people in power. It

isn't the Indian/Chinese/Korean ...... people you need to worry about

look to your own Governments and Big Business. They appear to think that

it's a great idea to de-skill their entire population. They don't really

give a damn about their own countries and in 10 years time, the poor sod

in power will have to deal with the fallout. If you want to stay in work

in the IT industry become a trainer, it's a real job for life, because

after the Indian population finish their skills spiral they are going to

be in the same position as us now. They will then be too expensive for

big business and they'll move on the next country Croatia ????? I've

been a DBA for around 20 years and I worked in the UK for 6 years

recently where most of the large IT companies have shipped 60%+ of their

work offshore. So I know for a fact that the writing is already on the

wall, all you have to do is look at the staff turnovers in the Indian

offices to see that it's only a matter of 5 or 6 more years before the

salaries reach critical mass.



If you don't like what your own governments are allowing big business to

do then VOTE. I doubt it will help in the long run because all

politicians are the same once they get into power but it is your only

option, unless you want to consider a change of employment. The only

jobs that are really safe are jobs which can't be shipped off shore.





This has been a party political broadcast for the down trodden DBA's of

the World.





P.S.

Sorry Willie I know you didn't want any more posts on this topic but at

least this one isn't offensive (I hope???)



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Ramasubramanian Venkateswaran

Re: DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE
(in response to Kirk Hampton)

??????


________________________________

From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Horacio Villa
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 1:03 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE



Nice to see you associate English with Competence.
And so, you don't know English (in this case, just mispelled a word, a
thing you may notice in many posts from USA) ---> you're incompetent.

Horacio Villa




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04/12/2006 11:36
Please respond to
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Re: [DB2-L] DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE






Moderator,

Where are you?

Regards,
Ramas




________________________________

From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Mark Cassity
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 7:56 PM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE

The posting should have at least be put through a spell-checker before
it was posted.

Oh doctor, heal thyself.



________________________________


From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of [login to unmask email]
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:17 PM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE

Dear Sushant,

What you and others from India need to understand is that there are
professional data base administrators that are members of this list who
have lost their jobs due to off shore outsourcing. When we see a
posting describing a job that is displacing yet another American DBA
containing grammatical errors and misspelled words, it makes some people
mad. Such a poorly constructed posting reinforces the perception that
the jobs in India are being filled with people that are incompetent.
The posting should have at least be put through a spell-checker before
it was posted.

Jim Tonchick

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Hello

Re: Globalisation -- (DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE)
(in response to Ramasubramanian Venkateswaran)
This subject is part of our daily life, and has its place in this forum.
What a DBA can do face to globalisation ?

The world goes like this ... we are also responsible about this : As a
consumer , we want more for less . Companies must change or die ...

As a technician what we can do ? learn more ? try to be more competent then
the "others", justify your salary (i know it is impossible to compete ...)
, and if it still doesn't work , find another job ?...

We had our gold era , now the wind blows for the others , that's life ...

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Andy Lankester

Re: Globalisation
(in response to Hello)
I have seen two companies recently where the issue has not been so much 'do we offshore?' but 'HOW do we offshore?'. The management of the process seems to me to be what causes the most problems: the announcement, almost always deliberately vague; the uncertainty - whose jobs are going to go and when; the consequent reorganisations and sapping of morale and company loyalty. It also appears that there is some question about the depth of the offshore skills base, particularly for z/OS and its DB2. Also, pace the previous correspondence, the level of communications skills! Another issue has been the ability to do non-scripted, rarely performed processes that truly test the depth of knowledge and understanding of the complex product that is today's DB2.

Andy Lankester


-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf Of Daniel Cremieux
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:25 PM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Globalisation -- (DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE)

This subject is part of our daily life, and has its place in this forum.
What a DBA can do face to globalisation ?

The world goes like this ... we are also responsible about this : As a consumer , we want more for less . Companies must change or die ...

As a technician what we can do ? learn more ? try to be more competent then the "others", justify your salary (i know it is impossible to compete ...) , and if it still doesn't work , find another job ?...

We had our gold era , now the wind blows for the others , that's life ...

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Hugh Lapham

Re: Globalisation
(in response to Andy Lankester)
Absolutely, Andy!!

Of course, the trend toward more and more automation (particularly
within DB2, but everwhere) facilitates the trend toward a requirement
for fewer and dumber staff ... which ultimately plays right into the
outsourcing market. The more we outsource, the easier it is to manage
with just a few "Red Adair" staff to manage the inevitable fires ...
[anyone remember Red or am I showing my age ;-)]

>>> Andy Lankester <[login to unmask email]> 2006-12-05 11:24:07
>>>
I have seen two companies recently where the issue has not been so much
'do we offshore?' but 'HOW do we offshore?'. The management of the
process seems to me to be what causes the most problems: the
announcement, almost always deliberately vague; the uncertainty - whose
jobs are going to go and when; the consequent reorganisations and
sapping of morale and company loyalty. It also appears that there is
some question about the depth of the offshore skills base, particularly
for z/OS and its DB2. Also, pace the previous correspondence, the level
of communications skills! Another issue has been the ability to do
non-scripted, rarely performed processes that truly test the depth of
knowledge and understanding of the complex product that is today's DB2.

Andy Lankester

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Daniel Hall

Re: Globalisation
(in response to Hugh Lapham)
Hugh,
Yes I remember Red, and yes you are showing your age ! ! !


Dan Hall
GE
Capital Solutions
Danbury, CT

T 513.217.5060
E [login to unmask email]
http://www.ge.com/capitalsolutions/



________________________________

From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Hugh Lapham
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:40 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Globalisation


Absolutely, Andy!!

Of course, the trend toward more and more automation (particularly
within DB2, but everwhere) facilitates the trend toward a requirement
for fewer and dumber staff ... which ultimately plays right into the
outsourcing market. The more we outsource, the easier it is to manage
with just a few "Red Adair" staff to manage the inevitable fires ...
[anyone remember Red or am I showing my age ;-)]

>>> Andy Lankester <[login to unmask email]> 2006-12-05 11:24:07 >>>
I have seen two companies recently where the issue has not been so much
'do we offshore?' but 'HOW do we offshore?'. The management of the
process seems to me to be what causes the most problems: the
announcement, almost always deliberately vague; the uncertainty - whose
jobs are going to go and when; the consequent reorganisations and
sapping of morale and company loyalty. It also appears that there is
some question about the depth of the offshore skills base, particularly
for z/OS and its DB2. Also, pace the previous correspondence, the level
of communications skills! Another issue has been the ability to do
non-scripted, rarely performed processes that truly test the depth of
knowledge and understanding of the complex product that is today's DB2.

Andy Lankester
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Jeff Frazier

Re: Globalisation
(in response to Daniel Hall)
he put out oil fires and such.



Hugh Lapham <[login to unmask email]>
Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List <[login to unmask email]>
12/05/2006 11:39 AM
Please respond to
DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG <[login to unmask email]>


To
[login to unmask email]
cc

Subject
Re: [DB2-L] Globalisation






Absolutely, Andy!!

Of course, the trend toward more and more automation (particularly within
DB2, but everwhere) facilitates the trend toward a requirement for fewer
and dumber staff ... which ultimately plays right into the outsourcing
market. The more we outsource, the easier it is to manage with just a
few "Red Adair" staff to manage the inevitable fires ... [anyone remember
Red or am I showing my age ;-)]

>>> Andy Lankester <[login to unmask email]> 2006-12-05 11:24:07 >>>
I have seen two companies recently where the issue has not been so much
'do we offshore?' but 'HOW do we offshore?'. The management of the
process seems to me to be what causes the most problems: the announcement,
almost always deliberately vague; the uncertainty - whose jobs are going
to go and when; the consequent reorganisations and sapping of morale and
company loyalty. It also appears that there is some question about the
depth of the offshore skills base, particularly for z/OS and its DB2.
Also, pace the previous correspondence, the level of communications
skills! Another issue has been the ability to do non-scripted, rarely
performed processes that truly test the depth of knowledge and
understanding of the complex product that is today's DB2.

Andy Lankester
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Steve Whittaker

Re: Globalisation
(in response to Jeff Frazier)
Yep; good ole John Wayne played the part in the movie!!! Excellant
movie!!.. (showing my age)..

--Steve....

-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email]
On Behalf Of Jeff Frazier
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:45 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Globalisation



he put out oil fires and such.



Hugh Lapham <[login to unmask email]>
Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List <[login to unmask email]>

12/05/2006 11:39 AM
Please respond to
DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG <[login to unmask email]>


To
[login to unmask email]
cc
Subject
Re: [DB2-L] Globalisation






Absolutely, Andy!!

Of course, the trend toward more and more automation
(particularly within DB2, but everwhere) facilitates the trend toward a
requirement for fewer and dumber staff ... which ultimately plays right
into the outsourcing market. The more we outsource, the easier it is
to manage with just a few "Red Adair" staff to manage the inevitable
fires ... [anyone remember Red or am I showing my age ;-)]

>>> Andy Lankester <[login to unmask email]> 2006-12-05
11:24:07 >>>
I have seen two companies recently where the issue has not been
so much 'do we offshore?' but 'HOW do we offshore?'. The management of
the process seems to me to be what causes the most problems: the
announcement, almost always deliberately vague; the uncertainty - whose
jobs are going to go and when; the consequent reorganisations and
sapping of morale and company loyalty. It also appears that there is
some question about the depth of the offshore skills base, particularly
for z/OS and its DB2. Also, pace the previous correspondence, the level
of communications skills! Another issue has been the ability to do
non-scripted, rarely performed processes that truly test the depth of
knowledge and understanding of the complex product that is today's DB2.

Andy Lankester

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Ray Janes

Re: Globalisation
(in response to Steve Whittaker)
Red's company is Wild Well Control Inc.
Competition is Boots and Coots Inc.

Use to work at a supply company for the well controls..... in another
life...

And the 1968 movie, staring John Wayne, was Hellfighters... Maybe I
should use that for a new DBA service!

-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Hall, Dan (GE Comm Fin)
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 10:44 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Globalisation



Hugh,
Yes I remember Red, and yes you are showing your age ! ! !


Dan Hall
GE
Capital Solutions
Danbury, CT

T 513.217.5060
E [login to unmask email]
http://www.ge.com/capitalsolutions/



_____

From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On
Behalf Of Hugh Lapham
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:40 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: Re: [DB2-L] Globalisation


Absolutely, Andy!!

Of course, the trend toward more and more automation (particularly
within DB2, but everwhere) facilitates the trend toward a requirement
for fewer and dumber staff ... which ultimately plays right into the
outsourcing market. The more we outsource, the easier it is to manage
with just a few "Red Adair" staff to manage the inevitable fires ...
[anyone remember Red or am I showing my age ;-)]

>>> Andy Lankester <[login to unmask email]> 2006-12-05 11:24:07 >>>
I have seen two companies recently where the issue has not been so much
'do we offshore?' but 'HOW do we offshore?'. The management of the
process seems to me to be what causes the most problems: the
announcement, almost always deliberately vague; the uncertainty - whose
jobs are going to go and when; the consequent reorganisations and
sapping of morale and company loyalty. It also appears that there is
some question about the depth of the offshore skills base, particularly
for z/OS and its DB2. Also, pace the previous correspondence, the level
of communications skills! Another issue has been the ability to do
non-scripted, rarely performed processes that truly test the depth of
knowledge and understanding of the complex product that is today's DB2.

Andy Lankester
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Max Scarpa

Re: Globalisation
(in response to Ray Janes)

You're old ! I remember a movie with John Wayne about him. But as I work as
geophysicist in a oil company I remember real Adair as well....

Anyway I heard many stories about outsourcing, one of them was a drop table
in test environment, 2 day for doing it.....when previously it was done in
few minutes. Problems in communications between client and outsourcers. The
most beaten people is people in the middle between tech people at the
outsourcer company and manager in the client, who are costantly reproached
by managers because the work is performed slowly, and in most cases this
people is lacking motivation due to outsourcing.

The skill on DB2 can be lowered by automation, but DB2 since V3 became
very very dependent on z/OS (using many features as SMS, HW sort,
compression,), 'allied' products like Webspeher MQ & CICS & RRS, hardware
and opening to other systems & language (Java,XML....) so I'm wondering if
the planned automation will be enough in future. And this could be another
reason for closing maniframes
as you will need too much skilled people and too costly.

Here mainframes are disappearing because the main companies using mainframe
are acquired by bigger companies so closing the mainframe of smaller
companies. Some companies gave their mainframe to some outsourcer but
usually in Italy, I don't know of Italian companies that migrated to India
or China their MF. That said, mainframe will disappear in few years here.

I'm afraid I'll have to study english seriouslyto migrate to...India

Maybe new z9 BC (low cost MF) will resurrect MF, but I've many doubts about
it.

Best regards

Max Scarpa
'There are more days than sausages'




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Bob Irving

Re: OT: [DB2-L] Globalisation -- (DB2 DBA POSITION AT BANGALORE)
(in response to Max Scarpa)
Plumbers and electricians come to mind...

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Welcome to the IDUG DB2-L list. To unsubscribe, go to the archives and home page at http://www.idugdb2-l.org/archives/db2-l.html. From that page select "Join or Leave the list". The IDUG DB2-L FAQ is at http://www.idugdb2-l.org. The IDUG List Admins can be reached at [login to unmask email] Find out the latest on IDUG conferences at http://conferences.idug.org/index.cfm