[z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration

Adam Baldwin

[z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
Fellow listers, does anyone have any V5 to V8 (I know...don't ask!) migration
experiences / histories / horror stories?

I'm particulary interested in the amount of time spent in V7 before moving on
to V8.

Thanks in advance, Adam

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Leslie

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Adam Baldwin)
<cough>

<splutter>

My advice is to spend as much time in 7 as you can.

8 CM is the big jump ... so having seen off two optimizer jumps when you
arrive at 7 I'd want to know that I'm stable at 7 ...

I liked 7 a lot, stable, good ... bla bla.

8 was good too, but the optimizer was more sensitive .. imho.

Cheers

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: DB2 Data Base Discussion List [mailto:[login to unmask email] On Behalf
Of Adam Baldwin
Sent: 28 November 2008 10:41
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration

Fellow listers, does anyone have any V5 to V8 (I know...don't ask!)
migration
experiences / histories / horror stories?

I'm particulary interested in the amount of time spent in V7 before moving
on
to V8.

Thanks in advance, Adam

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
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Adam Baldwin

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Leslie)
Thanks for that Leslie. I fully agree re the time in V7. I've just dug out one of
Roger's (Miller) presentations and he talks about 3 to 6 months in V7. I'm not
sure that we're going to have that leeway.

Still, I'd rather go for the less than optimal amount of time in V7 route than for
attempting to go V5 to V8 via the dirty route!

Adam

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Bill Meuth

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Adam Baldwin)
I assume that you have a way to get the V6 and V7 code, since both are long
out of marketing and support and therefore not ordererable.

Long ago, I did a jump release migration from V4 to V7 using administrative
tools that the client had. In essence we extracted all of the DDL from the V4
system, created a V7 system and defined the objects there.
Then we unloaded the data from the V4 system and loaded it into the V7.
We gathered stats along the way and bound all the programs to the V7
system.
It took a whole weekend, but in the end we had a good solid system.

I don't see why it wouldn't work for V5 to V8.

You might have other considerations, such as compiler support, 64-bit, etc.
However, you are going to have those any way you go.

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Adam Baldwin

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Bill Meuth)
Bill - although I know that the migration could be done "outside" DB2 without
passing through V7 it's not really a viable option for the client in question.
What I'm interested in is finding out how long others who have had to go from
V5 or V6 to V8 have spent in V7. I realize that the old recommendations no
longer hold as V7 is out of service. We wont have the possibilty of remaing in
V7 longe enough to pass all month end/quarter end/year en processing so
we're looking at a short period in V7. What I'm trying to do is to give
management a "guesstimate" of how long we'll need to be in V7. Some senior
bods are viewing passing through V7 as being just like Enable in V8 but that
wont be the case.

I'm also concerned re the impact of passing directly from the V5 optimizer to
the V8 one.

Anyway, in the end it is likely to be a management decision.

Cheers, Adam

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
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Max Scarpa

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Adam Baldwin)
Hi Adam

I'd avoid end of year period (it depends on your company's target,
anyway). I'm afraid it's a 'typical' management decision as it's probably
their fault if you still are in V5.

IMHO you can move from v5 to v6 very quickly and after a very short time
you can move to V7 as you've no new object/functions/features than could
create problems and these version are consolidated V7 to V8 is the bigger
jump. I did all migration and I saw no big problem from v5 to v7 (it was a
small shop anyway).

What about the rest of system (z/OS, CICS, IMS (if any).....) ?

Max Scarpa

Next to leave the Dark side of the Force




Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
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Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration






Bill - although I know that the migration could be done "outside" DB2
without
passing through V7 it's not really a viable option for the client in
question.
What I'm interested in is finding out how long others who have had to go
from
V5 or V6 to V8 have spent in V7. I realize that the old recommendations no

longer hold as V7 is out of service. We wont have the possibilty of
remaing in
V7 longe enough to pass all month end/quarter end/year en processing so
we're looking at a short period in V7. What I'm trying to do is to give
management a "guesstimate" of how long we'll need to be in V7. Some senior

bods are viewing passing through V7 as being just like Enable in V8 but
that
wont be the case.

I'm also concerned re the impact of passing directly from the V5 optimizer
to
the V8 one.

Anyway, in the end it is likely to be a management decision.

Cheers, Adam

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



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DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at
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can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code
Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you
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______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



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Isaac Yassin

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Max Scarpa)
Hi,

You can go from V5 to V7 direct, jumping on V6.
Be sure to have all APARs on V7.
Stay at V7 for 1-2 months and go on to V8.
Going directly from V5 to V8 is possible only
via "unload/reload" and it means longer downtime - but can
be done (I did it for V4 to V7 few years back).

Isaac

---- Original message ----
>Date:   Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:59:31 +0100
>From:   Max Scarpa <[login to unmask email]>
>Subject:   Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
>To:   [login to unmask email]
>
> Hi Adam
>
> I'd avoid end of year period (it depends on your
> company's target, anyway). I'm afraid it's a
> 'typical' management decision as it's probably their
> fault if you still are in V5.
>
> IMHO you can move from v5 to v6 very quickly and
> after a very short time you can move to V7 as you've
> no new object/functions/features than could create
> problems and these version are consolidated V7 to
> V8 is the bigger jump. I did all migration and I saw
> no big problem from v5 to v7 (it was a small shop
> anyway).
>
> What about the rest of system (z/OS, CICS, IMS (if
> any).....) ?
>
> Max Scarpa
>
> Next to leave the Dark side of the Force
>
>Adam Baldwin To [login to unmask email]
l.org
><[login to unmask email]>
cc
>Sent by: DB2 Data Base Subject Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] -
V5
>Discussion List to V8
migration
><[login to unmask email]
L.ORG>
>
>02/12/08 07.14
>
>+---------------------------+
>| Please respond to |
>| DB2 Database Discussion |
>| list at IDUG |
>| <[login to unmask email]> |
>+---------------------------+
>
> Bill - although I know that the migration could be
> done "outside" DB2 without
> passing through V7 it's not really a viable option
> for the client in question.
> What I'm interested in is finding out how long
> others who have had to go from
> V5 or V6 to V8 have spent in V7. I realize that the
> old recommendations no
> longer hold as V7 is out of service. We wont have
> the possibilty of remaing in
> V7 longe enough to pass all month end/quarter
> end/year en processing so
> we're looking at a short period in V7. What I'm
> trying to do is to give
> management a "guesstimate" of how long we'll need to
> be in V7. Some senior
> bods are viewing passing through V7 as being just
> like Enable in V8 but that
> wont be the case.
>
> I'm also concerned re the impact of passing directly
> from the V5 optimizer to
> the V8 one.
>
> Anyway, in the end it is likely to be a management
> decision.
>
> Cheers, Adam
>
>
_____________________________________________________________
_________
>
> * IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 *
> http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
>
_____________________________________________________________
_________
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> The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your
> membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ,
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> Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place,
> see the latest IDUG conference information and much
> more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic
> Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on
> Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms
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Adam Baldwin

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Isaac Yassin)
Thanks Max & Isaac.

I've done a 4 to 7 like that myself, and plenty of "normal" 5 to 7s .... the
worry is the leap from 5 to 8!

We may have to end up going for the unload / load route.... but I'd rather not.
And yes, the rest of the operating system will be upgraded too. This is a client
who is outsourcing and their system / software all dates back to 2003 +/-.

Management are wanting the quickest route to a more current platform and
I'm looking for something with a good degree of safety.

I'll let you know which way we jump.

Cheers, Adam

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
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Mark Vickers

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Adam Baldwin)
Adam,
Even though we are "fairly" current on all our software versions.
When we migrated from v7 to v8 it touched almost every piece of software
from z/OS, CICS to CA/BMC etc. etc.
My concern is having all your software at compatible levels as you roll
these DB2 versions through the landscape.
I forsee a major planning excercise involving ALL your vendors before you
attempt any physical installs.
Mark.



Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List <[login to unmask email]>
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Please respond to
DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG <[login to unmask email]>


To
[login to unmask email]
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Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration






Thanks Max & Isaac.

I've done a 4 to 7 like that myself, and plenty of "normal" 5 to 7s ....
the
worry is the leap from 5 to 8!

We may have to end up going for the unload / load route.... but I'd rather
not.
And yes, the rest of the operating system will be upgraded too. This is a
client
who is outsourcing and their system / software all dates back to 2003 +/-.


Management are wanting the quickest route to a more current platform and
I'm looking for something with a good degree of safety.

I'll let you know which way we jump.

Cheers, Adam

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



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Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you
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click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms





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Max Scarpa

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Mark Vickers)
Did you tell them you were not born in a manger ?

Max Scarpa




Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
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Please respond to
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Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration






Thanks Max & Isaac.

I've done a 4 to 7 like that myself, and plenty of "normal" 5 to 7s ....
the
worry is the leap from 5 to 8!

We may have to end up going for the unload / load route.... but I'd rather
not.
And yes, the rest of the operating system will be upgraded too. This is a
client
who is outsourcing and their system / software all dates back to 2003 +/-.


Management are wanting the quickest route to a more current platform and
I'm looking for something with a good degree of safety.

I'll let you know which way we jump.

Cheers, Adam

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The
DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at
http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you
can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code
Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you
have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost,
click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms


______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



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Wayne Driscoll

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Max Scarpa)
Adam,
Bear in mind that the decision may rest on what installable releases of
software are available. If the customer did not order a copy of DB2 V6
and DB2 V7, the unload/reload route may be the only way to go, as V8 and
V9 are the only versions of DB2 that can currently be ordered. The same
situation will hold true for other products in the stack. Also, (as you
probably know) that big of a move in DB2 will require a lot of legwork
with any 3rd party tools.

=======================
Wayne Driscoll
Omegamon DB2 L3 Support/Development
wdrisco(AT)us.ibm.com
=======================



Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List <[login to unmask email]>
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Please respond to
DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG <[login to unmask email]>


To
[login to unmask email]
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Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration






Thanks Max & Isaac.

I've done a 4 to 7 like that myself, and plenty of "normal" 5 to 7s ....
the
worry is the leap from 5 to 8!

We may have to end up going for the unload / load route.... but I'd rather
not.
And yes, the rest of the operating system will be upgraded too. This is a
client
who is outsourcing and their system / software all dates back to 2003 +/-.


Management are wanting the quickest route to a more current platform and
I'm looking for something with a good degree of safety.

I'll let you know which way we jump.

Cheers, Adam

______________________________________________________________________



______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

Adam Baldwin

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Wayne Driscoll)
Thanks for all of the input. To save further confusion / panic attacks / too
much laughter, this is a client who is outsourcing their machine / software /
production support to IBM. There is no issue with sourcing the necessary
versions of any of the software.

It will be a "simple" exercise of getting them from where they are onto a
standard IBM Platform.

Maybe we'll go for the miracle approach Max... New Frankincense Mode...

Thanks for all of the comments.

P.S. My first comment to management was "They want to do what?"

P.P.S. If any one has a quick and dirty way of getting from V1.2 to V10.....

______________________________________________________________________

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Max Scarpa

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Adam Baldwin)
Good luck Adam and remember, it's always YOUR fault if something goes
wrong according Newton's formula --> YF=(g*(T*c+M*c^n+1))*MF

Where YF=your fault, T=time,M=management fault,c=speed of light,g=9,8 m/s,
n> 100000 and MF is Murphy's factor varying from 0.0001 to 10^13.

So take some cares.

Max Scarpa

Certified Holy Water user
Certified 'In Adam we trust' fan club member





Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
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Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration






Thanks for all of the input. To save further confusion / panic attacks /
too
much laughter, this is a client who is outsourcing their machine /
software /
production support to IBM. There is no issue with sourcing the necessary
versions of any of the software.

It will be a "simple" exercise of getting them from where they are onto a
standard IBM Platform.

Maybe we'll go for the miracle approach Max... New Frankincense Mode...

Thanks for all of the comments.

P.S. My first comment to management was "They want to do what?"

P.P.S. If any one has a quick and dirty way of getting from V1.2 to
V10.....

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The
DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at
http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you
can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code
Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you
have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost,
click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms


______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



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Phil Grainger

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Max Scarpa)
OK, I've held off commenting on this until I was sure I had something to
add...



Also, I needed to do a "mind meld" with Steen Rasmussen



Anyway, there MAY be a tools option here which might be of use



CAs RC/Migrator now has a "move" option in addition to the usual
unload/reload type of migration



In this scenario, what you would do is:



1. Create a new DB2 V8 subsystem

2. Using RC/Migrator, create all of the objects in the new subsystem
the same as they are in the original V5 one (including as many of the
internal IDs being the same as we can manage)

3. Then COPY the underlying VSAM datasets, again using RC/Migrator,
from the old subsystem to the new one

4. Throw away your old DB2



Well, to be fair, there are a few more steps than that but you get the
idea



One challenge (again handled by RC/Migrator) is that you might have type
1 indexes in your V5 subsystem - of course these will need to be
converted to type 2 indexes during the conversion



The advantage to this is you CAN go "straight" from V5 to V8



The disadvantage being you are using a non-standard migration path



If this sounds interesting, then we'd better have the follow on
conversations off the list



Phil Grainger

CA

Senior Principal Product Manager

Phone: +44 (0)1753 577 733

Mobile: +44 (0)7970 125 752

eMail: [login to unmask email]



Ditton Park
Riding Court Road
Datchet
Slough
SL3 9LL



CA plc a company registered in England and Wales under company
registration number 1282495 with its registered office at the address
set out above. VAT number 697904179.





Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List <[login to unmask email]>

02/12/08 15.19

Please respond to
DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG <[login to unmask email]>

To

[login to unmask email]

cc


Subject

Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration








Thanks for all of the input. To save further confusion / panic attacks /
too
much laughter, this is a client who is outsourcing their machine /
software /
production support to IBM. There is no issue with sourcing the necessary

versions of any of the software.

It will be a "simple" exercise of getting them from where they are onto
a
standard IBM Platform.

Maybe we'll go for the miracle approach Max... New Frankincense Mode...

Thanks for all of the comments.

P.S. My first comment to management was "They want to do what?"

P.P.S. If any one has a quick and dirty way of getting from V1.2 to
V10.....

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The
DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at
http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site,
you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and
Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more.
If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at
no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms



________________________________

IDUG 2009 - North America * May 11-15, 2009 * Denver, CO, USA
< http://idug.org/lsNA >

The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The
DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at IDUG.ORG
< http://www.idug.org/lsidug > under the Listserv tab. While at the site,
you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and
Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information
< http://www.idug.org/lsconf > , and much more. If you have not yet signed
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Services < http://www.idug.org/lsms >


______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

Edward Long

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Phil Grainger)
This question reminds me of Click and Clack's favorite aphorism; its always the cheapskate who spends the most.

This management team believed they were saving money by not periodically upgrading; they are now spending both real dollars and end user good will like drunken sailors.

The fundamental engineering challenges here that I see are:

1: Testing. However many versions of DB2 this production system will enjoy will all need to be tested by the application folks who will get little or nothing out of the experience.
2: Bridge hardware. Given enough spare disks, particularly assuming snapshot technology, this project could be comparable to a major new application upgrade.
3: Tools. If you have high quality, reliable versions of RC Migrator or similar tools then doing the leap of faith option becomes viable.

If it were me, I'd plan and execute a single great leap forward with parallel cycles, change freezes, and extensive regression testing. Not breaking things on this kind of project is much more important than gaining anything. Specifically, I'd target V8 New Function Mode with no application changes allowed until the conversion is complete. This way you do one massive test program and get something strategic out of it.

V9 is still too fresh in my view for a situation like this.

Keep us posted.
Edward Long


--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Mark Vickers <[login to unmask email]> wrote:

> From: Mark Vickers <[login to unmask email]>
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:00 AM
> Adam,
> Even though we are "fairly" current on all our
> software versions.
> When we migrated from v7 to v8 it touched almost every
> piece of software
> from z/OS, CICS to CA/BMC etc. etc.
> My concern is having all your software at compatible levels
> as you roll
> these DB2 versions through the landscape.
> I forsee a major planning excercise involving ALL your
> vendors before you
> attempt any physical installs.
> Mark.
>
>
>
> Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
> Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List
> <[login to unmask email]>
> 12/02/2008 06:30 AM
> Please respond to
> DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG
> <[login to unmask email]>
>
>
> To
> [login to unmask email]
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Max & Isaac.
>
> I've done a 4 to 7 like that myself, and plenty of
> "normal" 5 to 7s ....
> the
> worry is the leap from 5 to 8!
>
> We may have to end up going for the unload / load route....
> but I'd rather
> not.
> And yes, the rest of the operating system will be upgraded
> too. This is a
> client
> who is outsourcing and their system / software all dates
> back to 2003 +/-.
>
>
> Management are wanting the quickest route to a more current
> platform and
> I'm looking for something with a good degree of safety.
>
>
> I'll let you know which way we jump.
>
> Cheers, Adam
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> * IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 *
> http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in
> IDUG. The
> DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at
> http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While
> at the site, you
> can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech
> Library and Code
> Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much
> more. If you
> have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG,
> available at no cost,
> click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms
>
>
>
>
>
> This e-mail (and any attachments) may contain information
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> intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you are
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> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> * IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 *
> http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in
> IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery
> preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the
> Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the
> IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place,
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______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

James Campbell

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Edward Long)
A couple of other things to bear in mind: what version of z/OS are they
running - or are they still running OS/390; what hardware are they running
on - z/arch, G6, G5,...; what third party utilities are they running - do those
vendors still supply software to support V7 ?

You may find the "other" migrations an interesting experience.

James Campbell

On 2 Dec 2008 at 14:19, Adam Baldwin wrote:

> Thanks for all of the input. To save further confusion / panic attacks / too
> much laughter, this is a client who is outsourcing their machine / software /
> production support to IBM. There is no issue with sourcing the necessary
> versions of any of the software.
>
> It will be a "simple" exercise of getting them from where they are onto a
> standard IBM Platform.
>
> Maybe we'll go for the miracle approach Max... New Frankincense Mode...
>
> Thanks for all of the comments.
>
> P.S. My first comment to management was "They want to do what?"
>
> P.P.S. If any one has a quick and dirty way of getting from V1.2 to V10.....
>

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

John Bucaria

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to James Campbell)
You've peaked my interest, Phil. Can this process be used to migrate
from V7 to V9 (skipping over V8)?

>>> "Grainger, Phil" <[login to unmask email]> 12/2/2008 11:55 AM >>>

OK, I’ve held off commenting on this until I was sure I had something
to add…

Also, I needed to do a “mind meld” with Steen Rasmussen

Anyway, there MAY be a tools option here which might be of use

CAs RC/Migrator now has a “move” option in addition to the usual
unload/reload type of migration

In this scenario, what you would do is:

1. Create a new DB2 V8 subsystem
2. Using RC/Migrator, create all of the objects in the new
subsystem the same as they are in the original V5 one (including as many
of the internal IDs being the same as we can manage)
3. Then COPY the underlying VSAM datasets, again using RC/Migrator,
from the old subsystem to the new one
4. Throw away your old DB2

Well, to be fair, there are a few more steps than that but you get the
idea

One challenge (again handled by RC/Migrator) is that you might have
type 1 indexes in your V5 subsystem – of course these will need to be
converted to type 2 indexes during the conversion

The advantage to this is you CAN go “straight” from V5 to V8

The disadvantage being you are using a non-standard migration path

If this sounds interesting, then we’d better have the follow on
conversations off the list

Phil Grainger
CA
Senior Principal Product Manager
Phone: +44 (0)1753 577 733
Mobile: +44 (0)7970 125 752
eMail: [login to unmask email]

Ditton Park
Riding Court Road
Datchet
Slough
SL3 9LL



CA plc a company registered in England and Wales under company
registration number 1282495 with its registered office at the address
set out above. VAT number 697904179.



Adam Baldwin <[login to unmask email]>
Sent by: DB2 Data Base Discussion List <[login to unmask email]>
02/12/08 15.19

Please respond to
DB2 Database Discussion list at IDUG <[login to unmask email]>


To
[login to unmask email]

cc

Subject
Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration






Thanks for all of the input. To save further confusion / panic attacks
/ too
much laughter, this is a client who is outsourcing their machine /
software /
production support to IBM. There is no issue with sourcing the
necessary
versions of any of the software.

It will be a "simple" exercise of getting them from where they are onto
a
standard IBM Platform.

Maybe we'll go for the miracle approach Max... New Frankincense
Mode...

Thanks for all of the comments.

P.S. My first comment to management was "They want to do what?"

P.P.S. If any one has a quick and dirty way of getting from V1.2 to
V10.....

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The
DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at
http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the
site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library
and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much
more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG,
available at no cost, click on Member Services at
http://www.idug.org/lsms


IDUG 2009 - North America * May 11-15, 2009 * Denver, CO, USA (
http://idug.org/lsNA )
The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The
DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at IDUG.ORG (
http://www.idug.org/lsidug ) under the Listserv tab. While at the site,
you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and
Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information (
http://www.idug.org/lsconf ), and much more. If you have not yet signed
up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member
Services ( http://www.idug.org/lsms )


IDUG 2009 - North America * May 11-15, 2009 * Denver, CO, USA (
http://idug.org/lsNA )
The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The
DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at IDUG.ORG (
http://www.idug.org/lsidug ) under the Listserv tab. While at the site,
you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and
Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information (
http://www.idug.org/lsconf ), and much more. If you have not yet signed
up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member
Services ( http://www.idug.org/lsms )

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

Roger Miller

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to John Bucaria)
For me, the key question to have signed off from management is their
expectation for fallback. If they demand to have full fallback capabilities for
some period of time, then that is the minimum to stay on V7. After migration
to V8 CM, fallback is to V7. For multiple version migrations other than V5 to
V7, fallback is whatever you can design. I have not seen fallback in any of
the unload / reload options. Parallel runs are very challenging and costly.

What are the objectives in terms of time you expect to save, need for
availability and safety? If you need data sharing coexistence, then some
choices are not an option. In essence, if you need fallback, V5 to V8 direct is
not an option, since the only fallback would be to V7. Fallback to a version
you have not run might not be an improvement.

Very interesting that they had a 2003 structure, but a 1997 level of DB2, not
the 1999 or 2001 varieties. With all this work, V8 is a five year old version, so
V8 does not have many years left before end of service.

Roger Miller

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:19:22 +1100, James Campbell
<[login to unmask email]> wrote:

>A couple of other things to bear in mind: what version of z/OS are they
>running - or are they still running OS/390; what hardware are they running
>on - z/arch, G6, G5,...; what third party utilities are they running - do those
>vendors still supply software to support V7 ?
>
>You may find the "other" migrations an interesting experience.
>
>James Campbell
>
>On 2 Dec 2008 at 14:19, Adam Baldwin wrote:
>
>> Thanks for all of the input. To save further confusion / panic attacks / too
>> much laughter, this is a client who is outsourcing their machine / software /
>> production support to IBM. There is no issue with sourcing the necessary
>> versions of any of the software.
>>
>> It will be a "simple" exercise of getting them from where they are onto a
>> standard IBM Platform.
>>
>> Maybe we'll go for the miracle approach Max... New Frankincense Mode...
>>
>> Thanks for all of the comments.
>>
>> P.S. My first comment to management was "They want to do what?"
>>
>> P.P.S. If any one has a quick and dirty way of getting from V1.2 to V10.....
>>
>

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

Max Scarpa

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Roger Miller)
HI Adam

As I said there are some technical limits even in DB2. I often observed
that for non-technical managers (sometimes even for technical)all seems
possible and can be done quickly and easily. And as you said ALL system
(z/OS,CICS etc.) has to be upgraded so the risk of problems increases. I
don't know how important is this project but if it's real important this
could explain some of your doubts.

A wise choice should be to jump to a version (as a whole: z/OS,CICS ecc)
that could be considered 'stable' (old V7 for DB2, z/OS 1.7 for z/OS, 3.1
for CICS) as seen from real world, stay there for a while and then do
small jumps (V8,z/os 1.9 ecc.).

Max Scarpa

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

Edward Long

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Max Scarpa)
The testing load applies to each stop on the trip, hence the non-stop flight suggestion since it minimizes the testing costs.

In my experience, these kinds of projects end up with a fix and continue strategy rather than fallback since fallback is usually possible only until the next batch cycle or some other event a couple of hours in the future from the cutover.

However, contingency planning, as Roger reminds us, is a key part of the planning process for this adventure. Someone with lots of stripes has to say how much, and what kinds, of risks they are willing to take and what mitigations they are willing to pay for.

Edward Long


--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Roger Miller <[login to unmask email]> wrote:

> From: Roger Miller <[login to unmask email]>
> Subject: Re: [DB2-L] [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:45 PM
> For me, the key question to have signed off from management
> is their
> expectation for fallback. If they demand to have full
> fallback capabilities for
> some period of time, then that is the minimum to stay on
> V7. After migration
> to V8 CM, fallback is to V7. For multiple version
> migrations other than V5 to
> V7, fallback is whatever you can design. I have not seen
> fallback in any of
> the unload / reload options. Parallel runs are very
> challenging and costly.
>
> What are the objectives in terms of time you expect to
> save, need for
> availability and safety? If you need data sharing
> coexistence, then some
> choices are not an option. In essence, if you need
> fallback, V5 to V8 direct is
> not an option, since the only fallback would be to V7.
> Fallback to a version
> you have not run might not be an improvement.
>
> Very interesting that they had a 2003 structure, but a 1997
> level of DB2, not
> the 1999 or 2001 varieties. With all this work, V8 is a
> five year old version, so
> V8 does not have many years left before end of service.
>
> Roger Miller
>
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:19:22 +1100, James Campbell
> <[login to unmask email]> wrote:
>
> >A couple of other things to bear in mind: what version
> of z/OS are they
> >running - or are they still running OS/390; what
> hardware are they running
> >on - z/arch, G6, G5,...; what third party utilities are
> they running - do those
> >vendors still supply software to support V7 ?
> >
> >You may find the "other" migrations an
> interesting experience.
> >
> >James Campbell
> >
> >On 2 Dec 2008 at 14:19, Adam Baldwin wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for all of the input. To save further
> confusion / panic attacks / too
> >> much laughter, this is a client who is outsourcing
> their machine / software /
> >> production support to IBM. There is no issue with
> sourcing the necessary
> >> versions of any of the software.
> >>
> >> It will be a "simple" exercise of
> getting them from where they are onto a
> >> standard IBM Platform.
> >>
> >> Maybe we'll go for the miracle approach Max...
> New Frankincense Mode...
> >>
> >> Thanks for all of the comments.
> >>
> >> P.S. My first comment to management was "They
> want to do what?"
> >>
> >> P.P.S. If any one has a quick and dirty way of
> getting from V1.2 to V10.....
> >>
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> * IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 *
> http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in
> IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery
> preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the
> Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the
> IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place,
> see the latest IDUG conference information and much more.
> If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG,
> available at no cost, click on Member Services at
> http://www.idug.org/lsms

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

Adam Baldwin

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Edward Long)
Once again, thanks for all of the responses. I have replied to some of you off
list as there are things that I can not say publicly for client confidentiality
reasons.

I will let you know which way we decide to go and - at some unknown time in
the future - I'll post a report on how it went.

Regards, Adam

______________________________________________________________________

* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
______________________________________________________________________



The IDUG DB2-L Listserv is only part of your membership in IDUG. The DB2-L list archives, FAQ, and delivery preferences are at http://www.idug.org/lsidug under the Listserv tab. While at the site, you can also access the IDUG Online Learning Center, Tech Library and Code Place, see the latest IDUG conference information and much more. If you have not yet signed up for Basic Membership in IDUG, available at no cost, click on Member Services at http://www.idug.org/lsms

Linda Billings

Re: [z/OS] - V5 to V8 migration
(in response to Adam Baldwin)
It looks like this has been beat to death but I just have to put in my 2 cents.
I haven't been a DBA for quite a few years. I'm lurking in this list because I
support IBM's Content Manager product on a Windows platform. I was a DB2
DBA for z/OS pre-v8.

I am the lead in a project where my division has taken over support of a
Content Manager server (only one server and that's another issue) that has
software that is almost all out of support by their respective vendors. Our
goal is to get all the software to vendor-supportable levels. I think that I
have some food for thought that is applicable for any platform. My advice is
that management should cool their jets because this isn't going to be fast. If
they want it fast it isn't going to be cheap. In a sentence this project is an IT
version of "This Old House". The system as a whole must be analyzed, not
one piece. An upgrade of that magnitude to one piece will definitely affect
others that communicate with that piece. For example, In order to get
Content Manager from v8.2 to v8.4 and all other software to supportable
levels this is what must happen.

Upgrade InputAccel v5.0 to v5.3
Upgrade DB2 v8.2 FP 6 to FP 14 (for other reasons)
Upgrade CM v8.2 FP10 to FP11 (for other reasons)
Upgrade WAS v5.0 to WAS 5.1
Upgrade CM v8.2 FP 10 to CM v8.3 FP 7
Upgrade WAS 5.1 to WAS v6
Upgrade TSM v5.2 to v5.4
Upgrade DB2 v8.1 FP14 to FP16
Upgrade InputAccel v5.3 to v6 (whenever that one goes GA)
Upgrade CM v8.3 FP7 to CM v8.4 FP something
Upgrade DB2 v8.1 FP16 to DB2 v9

Whew! Get the picture?

I hope that this helps.

Linda Billings

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* IDUG 2009 Denver, CO, USA * May 11-15, 2009 * http://IDUG.ORG/lsNA *
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