IMS to DB2 Modelling

Cuneyt Goksu

IMS to DB2 Modelling
Hello DB2 Community



Is there any tool that supports modelling from IMS Segments to Relational Model such as DB2 for z/OS.



Regards, Cuneyt

Philip Sevetson

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Cuneyt Goksu)
**please note my email address change**
I suppose you could theoretically do that, but given that most sites don’t put most of their metatdata in the DBD… how would you tell the tool which copylib to use for a given segment?

Philip Sevetson
Computer Systems Manager
5 Manhattan West (33rd St at 10th Ave)
New York, NY 10001-2632
212-857-1688 w
917-991-7052 c
212-857-1659 f
[cid:[login to unmask email]

From: Cuneyt Goksu (GMail) [mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:06 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: [DB2-L] - IMS to DB2 Modelling

Hello DB2 Community

Is there any tool that supports modelling from IMS Segments to Relational Model such as DB2 for z/OS.

Regards, Cuneyt

-----End Original Message-----
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Philip Nelson

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Cuneyt Goksu)
The IMS Explorer (free download) can take in IMS DBD and COBOL copybook
information and produce models from these. As IMS now has a catalog much
like DB2 it can produce DDL which you should be able to transform into
relational format (if it does not do it directly).

We are just starting out with this tool beyond production of simple models
so would appreciate your feedback.

On 2 Oct 2017 15:06, "Cuneyt Goksu (GMail)" <[login to unmask email]> wrote:

> Hello DB2 Community
>
>
>
> Is there any tool that supports modelling from IMS Segments to Relational
> Model such as DB2 for z/OS.
>
>
>
> Regards, Cuneyt
>
> -----End Original Message-----
>

Joel Goldstein

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Philip Nelson)
If you redesign for DB2, that’s good.

If you simply take each IMS segment and make it a DB2 table -- you will probably have a performance disaster.







Joel Goldstein
Responsive Systems
Buffer Pool Tool(R) for DB2, the worldwide industry standard

Predicts the IO rate/Sec for tuning changes
Performance software that works......
Predicts Group Buffer Pool performance too!
http://www.responsivesystems.com www.responsivesystems.com
tel. (732) 972-1261
fax.(732) 972-9416

[login to unmask email]



From: Philip Nelson [mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 8:03 AM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: [DB2-L] - RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling



The IMS Explorer (free download) can take in IMS DBD and COBOL copybook information and produce models from these. As IMS now has a catalog much like DB2 it can produce DDL which you should be able to transform into relational format (if it does not do it directly).



We are just starting out with this tool beyond production of simple models so would appreciate your feedback.



On 2 Oct 2017 15:06, "Cuneyt Goksu (GMail)" <[login to unmask email]> wrote:

Hello DB2 Community



Is there any tool that supports modelling from IMS Segments to Relational Model such as DB2 for z/OS.



Regards, Cuneyt



-----End Original Message-----



-----End Original Message-----

Cuneyt Goksu

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Cuneyt Goksu)
Hi Philip,
I'll check the Tool. Thank you

Hi Joel;
Our first mission is to map from IMS to DB2 table.
Performance will be next phase.

Thanks to all responses...
Cuneyt

/*** Joel
If you redesign for DB2, that’s good.
If you simply take each IMS segment and make it a DB2 table -- you will probably have a performance disaster.


/**** Philip Nelson
The IMS Explorer (free download) can take in IMS DBD and COBOL copybook
information and produce models from these. As IMS now has a catalog much
like DB2 it can produce DDL which you should be able to transform into
relational format (if it does not do it directly).

We are just starting out with this tool beyond production of simple models
so would appreciate your feedback.


From: DB2 - L [mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: 03 Ekim 2017 Salı 10:07
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: [DB2-L] - List Digest, Oct 02, 2017

The following posts were made on Oct 02, 2017
1. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Cuneyt Goksu)
2. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Philip Sevetson)
3. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Philip Nelson)
4. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Joel Goldstein)
5. Db2 LUW 11.1.2 audit logging - (Daniel Luksetich)
6. Heart of Texas Db2 Users Group meeting Friday October 6 - (Mary Lo)
7. Why and how to avoid release migration autobinds - (Patrick Bossman)

-----End Original Message-----

Nadir Doctor

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Cuneyt Goksu)
Hi Cuneyt,

You may find these resources helpful - Bernie O'Connor at Anixter may be
able to provide some additional details on experience with their prior
migration:

http://enterprisesystemsmedia.com/article/ims-to-db2-migration-exploring-the-options

https://www.slideshare.net/Syncsort/ims-to-db2-migration-how-a-fortune-500-company-made-the-move-in-record-time-with-minimal-disruption
http://blog.syncsort.com/2015/05/mainframe/why-companies-are-moving-mainframe-data-from-ims-to-db2/

http://modernsystems.com/ims-to-db2-conversion-how-it-works/


Best Regards,
Nadir



On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 2:32 AM, Cuneyt Goksu (GMail) <[login to unmask email]>
wrote:

> Hi Philip,
> I'll check the Tool. Thank you
>
> Hi Joel;
> Our first mission is to map from IMS to DB2 table.
> Performance will be next phase.
>
> Thanks to all responses...
> Cuneyt
>
> /*** Joel
> If you redesign for DB2, that’s good.
> If you simply take each IMS segment and make it a DB2 table -- you will
> probably have a performance disaster.
>
>
> /**** Philip Nelson
> The IMS Explorer (free download) can take in IMS DBD and COBOL copybook
> information and produce models from these. As IMS now has a catalog much
> like DB2 it can produce DDL which you should be able to transform into
> relational format (if it does not do it directly).
>
> We are just starting out with this tool beyond production of simple models
> so would appreciate your feedback.
>
>
> From: DB2 - L [mailto:[login to unmask email]
> Sent: 03 Ekim 2017 Salı 10:07
> To: [login to unmask email]
> Subject: [DB2-L] - List Digest, Oct 02, 2017
>
> The following posts were made on Oct 02, 2017
> 1. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Cuneyt Goksu)
> 2. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Philip Sevetson)
> 3. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Philip Nelson)
> 4. IMS to DB2 Modelling - (Joel Goldstein)
> 5. Db2 LUW 11.1.2 audit logging - (Daniel Luksetich)
> 6. Heart of Texas Db2 Users Group meeting Friday October 6 - (Mary Lo)
> 7. Why and how to avoid release migration autobinds - (Patrick Bossman)
>
> -----End Original Message-----
>
> -----End Original Message-----
>
>

Jim Tonchick

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Joel Goldstein)
I agree with Joel. The early years of DB2 were rife with horror stories of poor performance after converting data from IMS's hierarchical structure to DB2's relational model because the data was simply moved and not restructured.
<span style="font-size: 16px;">
</span>
<span style="font-size: 16px;">There are products available to allow you to 'convert' IMS data to DB2 without changing application programs. These do not have performance in mind. Their one claim to fame is that you no longer require the expensive IMS/DB license. Accountants love this. It depends on your motives for doing the move. If the intent is to save license costs, these type of products will accomplish that.
</span>

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Goldstein - Responsive Systems <[login to unmask email]>
To: db2-l <[login to unmask email]>
Sent: Mon, Oct 2, 2017 10:58 AM
Subject: [DB2-L] - RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling



<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_79873826-4ffd-429d-ab7a-d3f9e4b9fac7">
<style scoped="">#AOLMsgPart_2_79873826-4ffd-429d-ab7a-d3f9e4b9fac7 td{color: black;} @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}.aolReplacedBody p.aolmail_MsoNormal,.aolReplacedBody li.aolmail_MsoNormal,.aolReplacedBody div.aolmail_MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}.aolReplacedBody a:link,.aolReplacedBody span.aolmail_MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}.aolReplacedBody a:visited,.aolReplacedBody span.aolmail_MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;}.aolReplacedBody p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}.aolReplacedBody span.aolmail_EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;}.aolReplacedBody .aolmail_MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;}@page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}.aolReplacedBody div.aolmail_WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;}</style><div lang="EN-US" class="aolReplacedBody"><div class="aolmail_WordSection1"><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If you redesign for DB2, that’s good.</span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If you simply take each IMS segment and make it a DB2 table -- you will probably have a performance disaster.</span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Joel Goldstein
Responsive Systems
<b>Buffer Pool Tool</b></span><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(R)</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> for DB2</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">, the worldwide industry standard</span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Predicts the </span><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#C00000">IO rate/Sec</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> for tuning changes</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#548DD4">Performance software that works......</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
Predicts Group Buffer Pool performance too!
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" href="http://www.responsivesystems.com/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></a><a href="http://www.responsivesystems.com" target="_blank">www.responsivesystems.com</a></span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">tel. (732) 972-1261
fax.(732) 972-9416</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD"><a href="mailto:[login to unmask email]">[login to unmask email]</a></span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Philip Nelson [<a href="mailto:[login to unmask email]?">mailto:[login to unmask email]</a>]
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 02, 2017 8:03 AM
<b>To:</b> db2-<a href="mailto:[login to unmask email]">[login to unmask email]</a>
<b>Subject:</b> [DB2-L] - RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling</span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="aolmail_MsoNormal">The IMS Explorer (free download) can take in IMS DBD and COBOL copybook information and produce models from these. As IMS now has a catalog much like DB2 it can produce DDL which you should be able to transform into relational format (if it does not do it directly).</p><div><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="aolmail_MsoNormal">We are just starting out with this tool beyond production of simple models so would appreciate your feedback. </p></div>
<p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal">On 2 Oct 2017 15:06, "Cuneyt Goksu (GMail)" <<a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:[login to unmask email]">[login to unmask email]</a>> wrote:</p><div><div><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hello DB2 Community </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Is there any tool that supports modelling from IMS Segments to Relational Model such as DB2 for z/OS. </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards, Cuneyt </span></p><p class="aolmail_MsoNormal"> </p><div class="aolmail_MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><div align="left">-----End Original Message-----</div></div></div>
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stan hoey

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Jim Tonchick)
With respect, we have performance very much in mind and have successfully converted many IMS databases to DB2 last 20 years, restructuring and transforming data in many cases.

The CPU overhead increases, but anyone who has worked with IMS/DB and DB2 knows that IMS consumes less. Its horses for courses.

From: Jim Tonchick [mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: 03 October 2017 23:03
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: [DB2-L] - RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling

I agree with Joel. The early years of DB2 were rife with horror stories of poor performance after converting data from IMS's hierarchical structure to DB2's relational model because the data was simply moved and not restructured.

There are products available to allow you to 'convert' IMS data to DB2 without changing application programs. These do not have performance in mind. Their one claim to fame is that you no longer require the expensive IMS/DB license. Accountants love this. It depends on your motives for doing the move. If the intent is to save license costs, these type of products will accomplish that.


-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Goldstein - Responsive Systems <[login to unmask email]<mailto:[login to unmask email]>>
To: db2-l <[login to unmask email]<mailto:[login to unmask email]>>
Sent: Mon, Oct 2, 2017 10:58 AM
Subject: [DB2-L] - RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling


If you redesign for DB2, that’s good.

If you simply take each IMS segment and make it a DB2 table -- you will probably have a performance disaster.







Joel Goldstein
Responsive Systems
Buffer Pool Tool(R) for DB2, the worldwide industry standard

Predicts the IO rate/Sec for tuning changes
Performance software that works......
Predicts Group Buffer Pool performance too!
www.responsivesystems.com http://www.responsivesystems.com
tel. (732) 972-1261
fax.(732) 972-9416

[login to unmask email]<mailto:[login to unmask email]>



From: Philip Nelson [mailto:[login to unmask email]<mailto:[login to unmask email]?>]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 8:03 AM
To: [login to unmask email]<mailto:[login to unmask email]>
Subject: [DB2-L] - RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling



The IMS Explorer (free download) can take in IMS DBD and COBOL copybook information and produce models from these. As IMS now has a catalog much like DB2 it can produce DDL which you should be able to transform into relational format (if it does not do it directly).



We are just starting out with this tool beyond production of simple models so would appreciate your feedback.



On 2 Oct 2017 15:06, "Cuneyt Goksu (GMail)" <[login to unmask email]<mailto:[login to unmask email]>> wrote:

Hello DB2 Community



Is there any tool that supports modelling from IMS Segments to Relational Model such as DB2 for z/OS.



Regards, Cuneyt


-----End Original Message-----

-----End Original Message-----

________________________________



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Avram Friedman

RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Cuneyt Goksu)


Paper, Pencil and eraser are the best tools.

Logical I/O increase factor = segment level of target segment * # of targets retrived

Space requirement increase (dasd)
For each segment add the concatenated key at the segments level
New indexes esp if converting from HDAM or FP

Space requirement increase bufferpools
16x-32x to account for prefetch and buffer reuse
New index pools

Assuming the hardware requirements are meet there should be very little change to response time due to logical I/O rather than physical.  CPU increases are beyond the scope of this approach

The basic overall consideration is IMS and DB2s unit of data operation are diffrent
IMS is the DB record/segment
DB2 is the result set
The number of requests at the application level is much higher for IMS

This approach also ignores the DC component
For update commit processing DB2 has the benifit of Defered write compared to IMS Full Function

 

 

 

Avram Friedman
DB2-L hall of fame contributer
DB2-L acting administrator

[login to unmask email]

Daniel Luksetich

IMS to DB2 Modelling
(in response to Avram Friedman)
Here is a slightly outdated but useful article on legacy migrations:

http://www.enterprisesystemsmedia.com/it-management/legacy-migrations-experiences-of-the-industry http://www.enterprisesystemsmedia.com/it-management/legacy-migrations-experiences-of-the-industry







Daniel L Luksetich

DanL Database Consulting



IBM GOLD Consultant

IBM Champion for Analytics

IDUG Content Committee Past-Chairman

IBM Certified Database Adminstrator – DB2 11 DBA for z/OS

IBM Certified System Administrator – DB2 11 for z/OS

IBM Certified Application Developer – DB2 11 for z/OS

IBM Certified Advanced Database Administrator – DB2 10.1 for Linux UNIX and Windows



From: Avram Friedman [mailto:[login to unmask email]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 12:04 PM
To: [login to unmask email]
Subject: [DB2-L] - RE: IMS to DB2 Modelling




Paper, Pencil and eraser are the best tools.

Logical I/O increase factor = segment level of target segment * # of targets retrived

Space requirement increase (dasd)
For each segment add the concatenated key at the segments level
New indexes esp if converting from HDAM or FP

Space requirement increase bufferpools
16x-32x to account for prefetch and buffer reuse
New index pools

Assuming the hardware requirements are meet there should be very little change to response time due to logical I/O rather than physical. CPU increases are beyond the scope of this approach

The basic overall consideration is IMS and DB2s unit of data operation are diffrent
IMS is the DB record/segment
DB2 is the result set
The number of requests at the application level is much higher for IMS

This approach also ignores the DC component
For update commit processing DB2 has the benifit of Defered write compared to IMS Full Function







Avram Friedman
DB2-L hall of fame contributer
DB2-L acting administrator

[login to unmask email] <mailto:[login to unmask email]>



-----End Original Message-----